Ibn Taymiyyah reports that Fakhr al Razi argued as follows: if Allah is above the Throne and the Throne has bearers, then either the bearers carry only the Throne or they carry the Throne and what is above it.
If they carry both, then Allah is being carried, and whatever is carried must need what carries it, so Allah would need the Throne and its bearers. If they carry only the Throne, then the meaning of Allah being above it is lost or becomes meaningless in Razi’s view. Ibn Taymiyyah says he is opposing Razi on both parts of this reasoning. (Maqalat al Islamiyyin, pp. 35, 211 212)
Two views on Allah’s rising over the Throne
He first notes two well known views among theologians, hadith imams, Sufis and the fuqaha of the four madhhabs about Allah being above the Throne. One view treats this only as a relation between Creator and creation that began when the Throne was created, without any new act, movement, or change in Allah, because they deny all events in His essence.
The second view, which he presents as the position of the Salaf, the hadith imams and many later scholars, is that Allah rose over the Throne after creating the heavens and the earth, as the Quran states, so He became above it after not being above it, and likewise He truly comes, arrives, and rises as mentioned in the texts, without this implying deficiency or irrational impossibility. (Maqalat al Islamiyyin, pp. 35, 211 212; al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85; Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, pp. 261 262)
First refutation: being above something does not mean being carried by it
The first answer to Razi comes from those who reject his first premise. They say: we do not accept that whoever carries the Throne must also carry whatever is above it. A person who carries a roof does not carry the air, birds, or clouds above that roof; the earth does not carry the heavens even though they are above it; each heaven has another above it, yet the lower heaven does not carry the higher.
In all of creation, mere fawqiyyah (being above) does not mean that what is below is bearing the thing above, unless the upper thing is resting on it in a specific way. So there is no proof that the Throne carries Allah, and if the Throne does not carry Allah, then its bearers do not carry Him either, and Razi’s first step falls. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85)
Second refutation: even if the Throne bears Him, this does not mean He needs it
The second answer comes from those who do not grant Razi’s second premise. They say: even if we suppose that the Throne and its bearers carry Allah, this does not mean He needs them. Allah is the One who created them, their power, and their act of carrying.
They only carry by His qudrah and aid. In truth He is the One carrying Himself, just as He is the One who answers the supplication of His servants even though He created their selves, their tongues, their words, and their supplication. So there is no independent action coming from creation that Allah depends on. Everything returns to Him as the true faʿil, fully free of need. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85; Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, pp. 261 262)
Ibn Taymiyyah’s claim that this view shows more perfect independence and power
Ibn Taymiyyah then says that this second way of speaking actually shows a more complete form of tanzih and affirmation of Allah’s absolute independence and full power. The deniers claim that perfection is to say that Allah does not act by Himself, does not descend, ascend, come, or arrive, and does not create in His servants the power to carry the Throne that He is above.
Those who affirm His actions by choice say the opposite: He is able to create causes and strengths in His servants by which they carry the Throne while He is above it by His power and will. The One who can create other beings, give them power, and make them vehicles for His decree is greater in power than one described as unable to do this. The creation of living beings with strength, perception, and movement is itself one of the greatest signs of His might. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85)
Al Darimi’s criticism of treating Allah in terms of size and weight
To expose the weakness of Razi’s logic about size and burden, Ibn Taymiyyah quotes ʿUthman ibn Saʿid al Darimi. Al Darimi rebukes those who say that if Allah is smaller than the Throne then the Throne is greater, and if He is larger He is bounded by it, and if equal then the heavens and earth make the total greater. He calls this foolishness and misguidance. He says that Allah is greater than all things and no created thing carries Him because of its size or power.
The bearers of the Throne did not carry Him by their own strength or independently carry the Throne. When they were first commanded to bear the Throne with the Mighty One above it, they were overwhelmed and fell to their knees until they were taught to say “There is no power and no strength except with Allah,” and only then did they stand and carry by His power. Without His aid the Throne, its bearers, the heavens, the earth, and all that is in them would not remain for a moment. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85)
Turning Razi’s reasoning back on those who claim Allah is everywhere
Al Darimi also refutes those who object to Allah being above the Throne while they themselves say that Allah is in every place. He says: if Allah willed, He could be above the back of a gnat and it would bear Him by His power and lordship, so what about a Throne far greater than the heavens and the earth. He then asks how someone can deny that the Throne bears Him, while at the same time claiming that the earth carries Him although it is smaller and less vast than the Throne.
If their argument about size and weight were sound, it would apply more strongly against their own belief about the earth, so their reasoning collapses on itself and “chokes their own throat”. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 85)
Textual proofs that Allah is above the Throne and that the Kursi and Throne creak
Ibn Taymiyyah then brings several narrations that the Salaf accepted to show that Allah is above His Throne and that the Throne and Kursi have a real relation to His ʿuluww. One report from Jubayr ibn Mutʿim says that the Prophet ﷺ said: “Indeed, Allah is above His Throne, above His heavens, above His earth like a dome,” and that it creaks like a saddle under a rider.
This was narrated by al Darimi, Abu Dawud, Imam Ahmad in al Radd ala al Jahmiyyah, and Ibn Khuzaymah in Kitab al Tawhid, who stated he only included narrations from reliable transmitters.
Another narration mentions the Kursi encompassing the heavens and the earth and that Allah sits on it so that it creaks like a new saddle when someone heavy sits on it. Reports from Kaʿb al Ahbar and others speak of the heavens creaking from the weight of al Jabbar above them. Ibn Taymiyyah notes that many imams used these narrations as proofs against the Jahmiyyah and took them as supporting the clear meaning of the texts on Allah’s highness and istiwa. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, pp. 74, 85, 91, 120; Ibn Khuzaymah, al Tawhid, 1/244 245; Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, p. 261)
Reports about the bearers of the Throne and the “heaviness” at times of anger
He also cites reports that the bearers of the Throne feel it become heavier at certain times, such as when Allah looks at the deeds of the disbelievers and becomes angry, and that when the glorifiers rise and make tasbih that heaviness is lightened. These reports come from ʿAbd Allah ibn Masʿud and others, and are transmitted by al Darimi, al Bayhaqi and Abu Yaʿla.
Some early Muslims also explained verses like “The heavens almost break apart from above them” as referring to this reality, that the heavens creak under the weight of al Jabbar above them. Ibn Taymiyyah shows that for the Salaf this language was accepted and not treated as impossible, and that it did not imply that Allah is a body in need of support. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, pp. 91, 120; al Bayhaqi, al Asma wa al Sifat, p. 311; Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, p. 261)
How Abu Yaʿla explained the “heaviness” and rejected false interpretations
Al Qadi Abu Yaʿla discusses how to understand this “heaviness”. He says it is not heaviness in the sense of touching, resting, or physical weight like bodies, for Allah is exalted above that. Rather it is an attribute of His essence in a way that suits Him, just as all agree He is above things without sitting on them like bodies. Some said it is a new attribute that arises, then ends, like the arising of perception when something is perceived.
Others said it refers to the heaviness of His greatness and awe in the hearts of the bearers, as when people say “the truth is heavy”. Abu Yaʿla rejects this last explanation, because awe and reverence are always with the angels and never absent, and because truth and words are meanings that do not have physical weight.
He also rejects the suggestion that the extra burden is created in the Throne as a sign linked to the sins or obedience of others, since that would make the bearers punished or rewarded for someone else’s deeds. If the heaviness is tied to His essence and will, then He can increase or decrease it without injustice. (Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, manuscript p. 261; al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, p. 91)
Final link back to Razi’s Shubha
At the end, Ibn Taymiyyah connects these rational and textual points back to Razi’s argument. The entire universe, the Throne, and its bearers only stand by Allah’s command, as the verses show that Allah holds the heavens and the earth so they do not vanish and that they stand by His order.
If the heavens and earth could fall were it not for His sustaining them, then the Throne and its bearers are even more in need of Him. So it is false to move from “the Throne is carried” to “Allah is in need of the Throne.” Rather, He is the One who holds up the Throne, its bearers, the heavens, and the earth.
The two premises of Razi’s argument are therefore broken: being above something does not make one carried by it, and even if we speak of carrying in some sense, Allah is never in need of His creation, because their being, power and act of carrying are all His creation and under His will. (al Darimi, al Radd ala al Marisi, pp. 85, 91; Abu Yaʿla, Ibtal al Tawilat, p. 261)
The Shaykh, may Allah have mercy on him, said: People have two well-known views about Allah being above the Throne and above the creation, among all kinds of groups: the theologians, the hadith scholars, the Sufis, and the jurists from the followers of Abu Hanifah, Malik, al-Shafi‘i, Ahmad, and others.
One of the two views is that this is simply a relation and comparison between the creation and the Creator, and between the Throne and the Lord, which came to exist only when He created the Throne, without Him moving or undergoing any change. This is the view of those who say that it is impossible for events to occur in His essence and that movement is impossible for Him.
The second view, which is the well-known position of the Salaf and the leaders of hadith, and many among the theologians, jurists, and Sufis from all four madhhabs and beyond, is that He rose above the Throne after creating the heavens and the earth, as the Quran indicates. This means He rose over it after not having been above it.
Similarly, His rising to the heavens, His coming, and His arriving are all mentioned in the sound, widely transmitted texts. According to this view, there is no change in His essence. It has been said that there is no rational evidence making such actions impossible.
As for the bearers of the Throne, there are two views:
One view is that they carry the Throne only, not the One above it.
The second is that they carry the Throne and what is above it. This was mentioned earlier. (See Maqalat al-Islamiyyin by Abu al-Hasan al-Ash‘ari, pp. 35, 211–212. Those who hold this view include al-Darimi in al-Radd ‘ala al-Marisi, p. 85, and al-Qadi Abu Ya‘la in his manuscript Ibtal al-Ta’wilat, pp. 261–262.)
He (al-Razi) is opposed on both premises of his argument.
The first group says: we do not accept that whoever carries the Throne must also carry what is above it. So the first premise is rejected. Just because someone carries a roof does not mean he carries whatever is above the roofunless that thing is resting on it. Otherwise, air, birds, and other things above a roof are not being carried by the one who carries the roof. Likewise, the heavens are above the earth, but the earth is not carrying the heavens, and each heaven has another above it, but the lower does not carry the higher.
So, in creation, something being above something else does not mean it is being carried by it. The same goes for the Throne and the One above it: unless there is clear proof that the Throne is carrying Allah, it cannot be said so. And if the Throne is not carrying Him, then its bearers are even less likely to be carrying Him.
The second group rejects the second premise. They say: we do not accept that if the Throne and its bearers carry Allah, this would mean He needs them. Allah is the One who creates them, their strength, and their actions.
They only carry by His power and assistance. They do not act except by that. In truth, He is the One carrying Himself, just as He is the One who answers the call of His servants whom He created, along with their supplications and actions. So He is the One responding to what He Himself created and enabled.
Likewise, if He rejoices at the repentance of His servants or becomes angry due to their sins both of which are accepted by many theologians and by the majority of hadith scholars these involve a kind of change in response to the actions of His creation. There are two difficult issues here: one is the matter of new events occurring in His essence, and the other is whether the creation affects Him.
The first has been addressed elsewhere. The second is answered by saying: there is no creator, originator, designer, or disposer of affairs in the heavens and the earth besides Him. There is no power or strength except through Him. Every power in His servants comes from Him. So everything ultimately returns to Him being the one acting by Himself, the One free from all need.
This group says: what we have described here is more perfect in affirming that Allah is free of all need and that He has power over all things. This is contrary to what the deniers say. They claim He cannot act by Himself, nor descend, ascend, come, or arrive. They say He cannot create in His servants the strength to carry His Throne, which He is upon, and that they only carry it while He is above it by His power and will.
Their claim implies He is unable to uphold Himself except by Himself. But when Allah creates causes through which He brings about other things and arranges the affairs of the heavens and the earth, that shows even greater power than simply creating things without empowering others to act. One who can create strength in others is greater in power than one who cannot. This is why the creation of living beings with their strength, perception, and movement is among the greatest signs of His power. Allah said: “Indeed, Allah is the Provider, the Possessor of Strength, the Firm One” (51:58).
‘Uthman ibn Sa‘id al-Darimi said in his refutation of al-Marisi and his companion: What is even more astonishing is your comparing Allah to the Throneits size and weight, big or small—and your childish claim that if Allah is bigger than the Throne, or smaller, or equal, then if He is smaller, the Throne is greater than Him; and if He is bigger, you’ve given Him superiority over the Throne; and if He is equal, then when the heavens and the earth are added, they would be greater. All of this is nonsense and foolishness, misguidance that leads others astray. If anyone truly feared Allah, He would silence the tongue that spoke such things. What a shame that this is the one their people consider a scholar and their guide.
To this arrogant man we say: Allah is greater than all things, and no created thing carried Him due to size or strength. The bearers of the Throne did not carry Him by their power, nor did they independently hold up the Throne. They carried it by His power.
It has reached us that when they were first made to carry the Thronewith the Mighty One above it in His majesty and splendour they were overcome and weakened. They fell on their knees until they were taught to say: “There is no power and no strength except with Allah.” Then they stood, supported by the power and will of Allah. (This report will be fully quoted on p. 245.)
Without His aid, neither the Throne nor its bearers, nor the heavens, the earth, or anything in them could remain. If He willed, He could be above the back of a gnat and it would bear Him by His power and lordship. So what about a Throne greater than the heavens and earth? How can you deny, O arrogant one, that the Throne carries Him, when the Throne is greater than the seven heavens and seven earths? If it were inside the heavens and earth, they would not contain it. But it is above the seventh heaven.
How do you deny this while claiming that Allah is present in every part of the earth which is smaller and less vast than the Throne? How can you claim the earth carries Him, yet deny that the Throne does, when it is far greater?
Apply the same logic you used to argue about the Throne’s size and weight to the earth, its smallness, and what it can hold. Then you’ll realise your ignorance and see what your own argument brings against you. Every point you make turns back on you and chokes your own throat.
‘Abd Allah ibn Salih narrated, from Mu‘awiyah ibn Salih that he said: The first thing Allah created when His Throne was on the water were the bearers of the Throne. They said: “Our Lord, why did You create us?” He said: “I created you to carry My Throne.” They said: “Our Lord, who can bear the weight of Your Throne, along with Your greatness, majesty, and awe?” He said to them: “I created you for that.”
They said again: “Our Lord, who can carry Your Throne with Your greatness and majesty?” He said: “Say: There is no power and no strength except with Allah.” Then He enabled them to carry it and the Throne by the power of Allah. (al-Darimi, al-Radd ‘ala al-Marisi, p. 85.)
He said: Do you not know, O opponent, that the bearers of the Throne did not carry the Throne and the One upon it by their own strength or might, but only by the strength and aid of Allah?
And he said in his book: Muhammad ibn Bashshar, known as Bundar, narrated to us, Wahb ibn Jarir narrated to us, his father narrated to us, he said: I heard Muhammad ibn Ishaq narrating from Yaqub ibn Utbah, from Jubayr ibn Muhammad ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim, from his father, from his grandfather, who said: The Messenger of Allah said, “Indeed, Allah is above His Throne, above His heavens, above His earth, like a dome” and the Prophet pointed with his hand like a dome “and it creaks with Him as a saddle creaks beneath a rider.”
This hadith was also narrated by Imam Ahmad in his book al-Radd ala al-Jahmiyyah from several of his shuyukh, among them Ibn Bashshar. Ibn Bashshar in his version of the hadith also said: “Indeed, Allah is above His Throne.”
Some who involve themselves in hadith may criticise this narration to defend the Jahmiyyah, though they may not grasp the actual implications of their position, or they reject the phrase “creaking” out of distaste, as did Abu al-Qasim the historian. They argue that the narration was only reported by Muhammad ibn Ishaq.
They say: Muhammad ibn Ishaq did not say “he narrated to me” so it may be disconnected. Others take issue with Ibn Ishaq himself, though this hadith and others like it in wording and meaning were widely transmitted among the scholars throughout the generations, and the early generations and imams of the ummah used to narrate it and accept it, refuting the Jahmiyyah with it.
Imam Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Khuzaymah narrated it in his book on tawhid, in which he explicitly stated that he would only include hadiths from trustworthy narrators.
Yaqub ibn Utbah ibn al-Mughira ibn al-Akhnas al-Thaqafi, from Jubayr ibn Muhammad ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim al-Qurashi al-Nawfali neither of them have narrations in the Sahih of al-Bukhari or Muslim. This narration was only reported by Muhammad ibn Ishaq ibn Yasar from Yaqub, and Ibn Ishaq is not relied upon by all scholars; some of the imams criticised him and some accused him of lying.
This narration was transmitted with a connected chain, from Bundar as al-Darimi and Abu Dawud also narrated it. It was also narrated from Abu Musa Muhammad ibn al-Muthanna with this exact chain.
Ibn Khuzaymah said: “Abu Musa read it to me and I heard that Wahb narrated to them with this exact chain.”
Among those who used this narration as proof was Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm in the discussion on the rotation of the spheres. And Ibn Hazm was among the most knowledgeable people, not following others blindly and not using as proof anything unless its authenticity was established to him—even though this is not the place to go into that here.
‘Uthman ibn Sa‘id also narrated: Abdullah ibn Raja narrated to us, Israel narrated to us, from Abu Ishaq, from Abdullah ibn Khalifah said: A woman came to the Prophet and said, “Ask Allah to make me enter Paradise.”
So he glorified the Lord and said: “Indeed, His Kursi (Footstool) encompasses the heavens and the earth, and He indeed sits on it, and nothing remains of it but the space of four fingers,” and he spread out four of his fingers. “And it makes a creaking sound like a new saddle when someone heavy sits on it.” (Narrated by al-Darimi in al-Radd ‘ala al-Marisi, p. 74. Also narrated by Ibn Khuzaymah in al-Tawhid, hadith 150, 1/244–245, with a weaker chain. It was also narrated as mursal by Ibn Khuzaymah in hadith 151. Al-Daraqutni and others reported it from ‘Abd Allah ibn Khalifah from ‘Umar without mentioning the sitting or four fingers. See Ibn Hajar, 2/73; al-Khulasa, p. 291.)
Ibn Mas‘ud said: “Your Lord has no night or day. The light of the heavens is from the light of His face. Each day of yours is twelve hours. The deeds of yesterday are presented to Him at the start of the day.
He looks at them for three hours and sees what He dislikes, which angers Him. The first to know of His anger are the bearers of the Throne—they feel it becomes heavy on them. So the bearers of the Throne glorify Him, along with the veils of the Throne and the angels.” (Narrated by al-Darimi in al-Radd ‘ala al-Marisi, p. 91. Also partially narrated by al-Bayhaqi in al-Asma wa al-Sifat, p. 311.)
Those who hold this view also use the statement of some early Muslims in explaining the verse: “The heavens almost break apart from above them” (al-Shura: 5).
‘Uthman ibn Sa‘id (al-Darimi) said in his refutation of the Jahmiyyah: ‘Ata ibn Yasar said: A man came to Ka‘b Al Abhar while he was with a group and said, “O Abu Ishaq, tell me about the Compeller (al-Jabbar).”
The people were shocked at his question. Ka‘b said: “Leave him. If he is ignorant, he will learn. If he has knowledge, he will increase in it.”
Then Ka‘b said: “Allah created seven heavens and from the earth their like. Between every two heavens is a space like that between the lowest heaven and the earth. And the thickness of each is the same. And between each two earths is the same space and thickness. Then He raised the Throne and rose over it. And there is no heaven except that it makes a creaking sound like that of a new saddle from the weight of the Compeller above them.” (Narrated in al-Radd ‘ala al-Marisi, 1/120. Though this narration is from Ka‘b, it may be from the People of the Book, or from the Companions. The chain contains reliable narrators like al-Layth and Sa‘id ibn Abi Hilal, though the source remains uncertain. It was reported by major scholars without disapproval.)
Al-Qadi Abu Ya‘la also quoted this narration in Ibtal al-Ta’wilat, manuscript p. 261. He reported from the Sunan of ‘Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal: My father narrated to me, from Abu al-Mughira, from ‘Abdah bint Khalid ibn Ma‘dan, from her father, who used to say: “The Most Merciful becomes heavy on the bearers of the Throne at the beginning of the day when the disbelievers stand, and when the glorifiers (believers) rise, the burden is lightened from the bearers.”
Al-Qadi said: Abu Bakr ibn Abi Khaythamah mentioned in his Tarikh with his chain that Ibn Mas‘ud said: “Every day of yours is twelve hours. The deeds of the previous day are presented at the beginning of the day. He looks at them for three hours and sees what displeases Him, which angers Him. The first to sense His anger are the bearers of the Throne they feel it becomes heavy on them. So the bearers of the Throne glorify Him.”
It is not impossible to understand this literally that His Essence causes the weight. This does not negate His attributes. Al-Qadi said: “We do not affirm heaviness in the sense of touching, resting, or weight as found in bodies. Allah is exalted above that. Rather, it is affirmed as an attribute of His Essence, not through physical contact, just as all say He is above things without being on top of them physically.”
He said: It was said that a new attribute arises by which He becomes heavy on the Throne, then it ends just like perception arises when perceiving things, and ends when they cease. Some said: it refers to the weight of His greatness and awe in their hearts, like when we say: “Truth is heavy and bitter,” without meaning physical weight. Allah said: “Indeed, We will cast upon you a heavy word” (al-Muzzammil: 5).
Al-Qadi said: That is wrong. Because awe and reverence are always present with them and never absent. Allah said: “They glorify Him night and day, never tiring” (al-Anbiya: 20). As for saying “truth is heavy,” that is not physical, because truth is a meaning, not a body, and meanings do not carry weight.
But Allah’s Essence is not a meaning or an accident, that it may be described with weight. As for the verse “We will cast upon you a heavy word,” the scholars of transmission said it means the heaviness of the rulings, not physical weight, since speech is not a body.
He said: If it is said that the weight is created in the Throne and placed on their shoulders as a sign when the disbelievers rise, the answer is: That is wrong.
Because it means that their burden increases due to the disbelievers and is reduced due to the obedient, which is invalid it implies punishment or reward for what others do. But if we understand it as the weight of His Essence, then it does not lead to that. Because the weight of His Essence upon them is part of their burden, and He has the right to increase or decrease that.
The purpose here is to point out the origin of people’s discussions on this.
As for discussing terms like “heavy” or “light,” that is a longer topic. Some philosophers say: the heavens are neither heavy nor light, because a heavy body moves down to the centre, and a light one moves up. The spheres rotate—they do not go up or down.
So they say it cannot be described as heavy or light, just as they do not describe it with the four natural elements. This debate may be verbal, if they mean that they only use those terms for things that move up or down. But the real issue is whether the heavens can rise or fall—were it not that Allah holds them up by His power. As He said: “Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth lest they vanish” (Fatir: 41), and “Of His signs is that the heavens and the earth stand by His command” (al-Rum: 25).
And in Sahih Muslim, from the hadith of Kurayb, from Ibn Abbas, from Juwayriyyah bint al-Harith, she said: The Prophet ﷺ left me after praying Fajr and I was sitting in my prayer place. He returned later in the morning while I was still sitting. He said: “Are you still in the same state I left you?” She said: “Yes.” He said: “I said four words three times which, if weighed against all you said since morning, would outweigh them: ‘Subhan Allah wa bi hamdihi (‘Glory be to Allah and His praise’) as many times as His creation, to the extent of His pleasure, the weight of His Throne, and the ink of His words.’” (Muslim, 4/2090–2091; Abu Dawud, hadith 1503; Musnad Ahmad, 1/258)
The meaning of the hadith is to show the greatest possible weight, greatest number, and most beloved words—Allah’s words, pleasure, and remembrance.
Bayan Talbis Al Jahmiyyah (3/237-279)
