Ar Razi’s Argument

Ar Razi argued that if Allah were settled upon the Throne, then the Throne should logically have been created before the heavens. According to the view he was criticising, the Throne would be a place connected to Allah, while the heavens would be places prepared for His servants. Reason, according to him, suggests that a person prepares a place for himself before preparing places for others.

He then claimed that revelation indicates the opposite order. The verse says:

إِنَّ رَبَّكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى عَلَى الْعَرْشِ
“Indeed, your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He rose over the Throne” (al Araf 54).

He argued that the word “then” indicates chronological sequence. From this he concluded that the heavens were created before the Throne, and therefore the claim that Allah is above the Throne becomes irrational.

First Response

The argument collapses immediately because the reasoning actually supports the opposite position.

The claim was that if Allah were above the Throne, the Throne would logically be created first. That is exactly what is established in revelation. The order assumed in the argument is the same order affirmed by the opposing position.

Even if that logical order were not necessary, the reasoning would still fail. The argument depends entirely on an assumption about the sequence of creation that has no proof.

The False Claim About The Order Of Creation

The statement that the heavens were created before the Throne has no basis.

No early scholar, no recognised authority, and no known report from the early generations ever said that the heavens were created before the Throne. The claim is simply asserted without evidence.

The verse used as proof does not say that the Throne was created after the heavens. It only says that Allah created the heavens and the earth in six days and then rose over the Throne. It does not say that the Throne was created at that moment.

So the verse establishes the timing of Allah rising over the Throne, not the timing of the Throne’s creation.

Evidence That The Throne Existed Before The Heaveans & The Earth

The wording of the Qur’an itself indicates that the Throne existed before the creation of the heavens and the earth.

If the Throne had been created at that moment, the creation of the Throne would have been mentioned together with the creation of the heavens and the earth. Instead, the verse simply states that Allah rose over the Throne after the six days of creation. This wording shows that the Throne already existed.

Another verse makes this clearer:

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ فِي سِتَّةِ أَيَّامٍ وَكَانَ عَرْشُهُ عَلَى الْمَاءِ
“And He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the water” (Hud 7).

This shows that the Throne existed before the creation of the heavens and the earth, since it was already upon the water when the creation of the universe began.

The Report On The Beginning Of The Creation

The hadith of Imran ibn Husayn clarifies the matter even further.

The Prophet ﷺ said:“Allah was and there was nothing before Him. His Throne was upon the water. Then He wrote everything in the Book, and then He created the heavens and the earth.” (Sahih al Bukhari, Book  of Tawhid, hadith 7418)

This report establishes the chronological order clearly. Allah existed. The Throne existed upon the water. After that, the heavens and the earth were created.

So the Throne existed before the heavens and the earth.

The Argument Against Ar Razi

Once it is established that the Throne existed before the heavens and the earth, the reasoning used in the argument actually supports the opposing view.

If the Throne existed first, and if it is reasonable that the place connected to Allah would be prepared before the places of His servants, then the revealed order fits that reasoning perfectly.

Instead of weakening the position that Allah is above the Throne, the argument ends up strengthening it.

Even If His Assumption Is True

Even if it were assumed that the Throne had been created after the heavens and the earth, the argument would still fail.

Creation often occurs in stages where later creations become elevated above earlier ones. The Qur’an itself mentions that the earth was created before the heavens and that the heavens were later formed above it.

هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُمْ مَا فِي الْأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ
“It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He turned to the heaven and made them seven heavens” (al Baqarah 29).

The earth was created first, yet the heavens were raised above it afterwards. So even if the Throne had been created later, that would not prevent Allah being above it.

Ar Razi said: If He were settled on the Throne, then it would have been more proper to begin with the creation of the Throne before the creation of the heavens. Because, according to the view that He is settled on the Throne, the Throne is a place for Him and the heavens are places for His servants.

And what is closer to the mind is that preparing a place for oneself comes before preparing a place for one’s servants. But it is known that the creation of the heavens came before the creation of the Throne, due to the verse: “Indeed, your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, then He rose over the Throne” (al Araf: 54), and the word “then” indicates a chronological sequence.

I say: Praise be to Allah who sent His Messenger ﷺ with guidance and the religion of truth to make it prevail over all religion, and Allah is sufficient as a witness. And praise be to Allah who gave His Messenger ﷺ a helping authority from Him, and praise be to Allah who supports His messengers and those who believe in this worldly life and on the Day when witnesses will stand.

He supports them with the authority of proof and the authority of power. And He is the One who gives His messengers and the believers with them a proof against those who oppose them and argue about Him falsely, just as He said: “while they argue concerning Allah, and He is severe in might” (al Rad: 13).

For this man and those like him do not argue with any proof except that it turns against them, not in their favour. But those whom Allah has aided with a spirit from Him, written faith in their hearts, and placed in their hearts a light by which they understand the subtle meanings of this, they are helped against them. As for the clear meanings, the common people understand them. And this is one of the clear ones, and that is: there is no disagreement among the Muslims and the People of the Book that the Throne was created before the heavens and the earth.

The first response: The saying of this objector, “If He were settled on the Throne, then it would have been more proper to begin with creating the Throne before creating the heavens,” does not harm them but rather benefits them. For the matter of order,

(This means taking to punishment. Ibn al Arabi said: al mahal means scheming, and scheming from Allah is planning with truth. Abu Ubayd said: al mahal means punishment and what is hated.)

This is what actually happened, and praise be to Allah. And even if that order was not necessary, the argument would be false. So it is false on both assumptions.

As for his statement: “But it is known that the creation of the heavens came before the creation of the Throne,” it is said: No one from the early or later generations knew this, nor did anyone known for knowledge say it.

As for his argument for the precedence of the creation of the heavens based on the verse: “Indeed, your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, then He rose over the Throne” (al Araf: 54), and the word “then” shows a sequence, in this verse it only says that He rose over the Throne after the creation of the heavens and the earth. So where is the phrase “then He created the Throne”? This is not hidden from anyone.

There is nothing in the Book of Allah that even suggests the Throne was created later, let alone something that proves it. So there is no indication in the Quran that the heavens were created before the Throne.

The second response: The Quran shows that the Throne was created before the heavens and the earth, by the verse he quoted and by others. His saying: “He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, then He rose over the Throne” (al Araf: 54) shows that He rose over the Throne after the creation of the heavens and the earth, and He did not mention that He created the Throne at that time.

If He had created it at that time, He would have mentioned its creation and then His rising over it. And since He mentioned His rising over it without mentioning its creation, this is a proof that it was already created.

And because it is established by the Book, the Sunnah, and the agreement of the Muslims and the People of the Book that the creation happened in 6 days, and He said: “And He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and His Throne was upon the water to test you which of you is best in deed” (Hud: 7), He informed that He created the heavens and the earth in 6 days and that His Throne was upon the water at that time.

And it is in the Sahih from Imran ibn Husayn, from the Prophet ﷺ, that he said: “Allah was, and there was nothing besides Him. And His Throne was upon the water. Then He wrote in the Book everything, and then He created the heavens and the earth.” (Imran ibn Husayn ibn Ubayd al Khuzai, Abu Nujayd, was one of the learned and knowledgeable companions. He accepted Islam during Khaybar, participated in several battles, held the banner of Khuzaah on the Day of Conquest, and Umar sent him to Basrah to teach the people, where he later became judge by the appointment of Ziyad.

He died there. He was among those who refrained from the fighting at Siffin. He has 130 hadiths in the hadith books. The people of Basrah used to say: He used to see the angels and they would speak to him until he was cauterised. See: al Istiab by Ibn Abd al Barr 3/2422, Safwat al Safwah by Ibn al Jawzi 1/282, Tadhkirat al Huffaz by al Dhahabi 1/28, Usd al Ghabah by Ibn al Athir 4/137, al Isabah by Ibn Hajar 3/27.)

(Reported by al Bukhari in his Sahih, Book of Tawhid, no. 7418, with the wording: “Allah was and there was nothing before Him. His Throne was upon the water. Then He created the heavens and the earth.”)

Al Bukhari said in Kitab al Tawhid and Refutation of the Jahmiyyah and the Heretics: Chapter on the saying of Allah: “And His Throne was upon the water” (Hud: 7) and “And He is the Lord of the mighty Throne” (al Tawbah: 129). From Imran ibn Husayn: “I was with the Prophet ﷺ when a group from Banu Tamim came to him. He said: Accept the glad tidings, O Banu Tamim. They said: You have given us glad tidings, now give us something.

Then a group from Yemen came, and he said: Accept the glad tidings…” (And this wording is found in Sahih al Bukhari with a long addition: “And He is the Lord of the mighty Throne.” Abu al Aliyah said: “He rose to the heaven” means He ascended and then created them.

Mujahid said: “He rose” means He ascended over the Throne. Ibn Abbas said: al Majid means noble, and al Wadud means loving. It is said: Hamid Majid, as if Majid is the active form of Majid and Mahmud from Hamid. Reported by Abdan from Abu Hamzah from al Amash from Jami ibn Shaddad from Safwan ibn Muhriz from Imran ibn Husayn.)

They said: We accept. We have come to understand the religion and to ask about the beginning of this matter, what was there?

The third response: If the Throne was created before the heavens and the earth, and it makes sense to the mind that the Throne would be a place for Him and the heavens a place for His servants, then what is established by the verse he quoted, and others from the Quran and hadiths and agreement of the Muslims, is a proof for the view of his opponent, not for his own view.

The fourth response: Even if we suppose that Allah created the Throne after the heavens and the earth, there would still be nothing preventing Him from being over it.

Just as He created the heavens after the earth: “Then He made them 7 heavens, and He is knowing of all things” (al Baqarah: 29)

after He said: “It is He who created for you all that is in the earth” (al Baqarah: 29),

and He said: “Then He turned to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth: Come willingly or unwillingly. They said: We come willingly” (Fussilat: 11),

after His saying: “Do you truly disbelieve in the One who created the earth in 2 days and you set up rivals with Him? That is the Lord of the Worlds. And He placed in it firm mountains above it, and blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance in 4 days, equal for those who ask” (Fussilat: 9 to 10).

Bayan Talbis Al Jahmiyyah (3/280 to 286)