The belief of Ahlus sunnah is to affirm that Allah ﷻ is distinct and separate from creation. The heretics will deny this because once they affirm he is outside of something they have ascribed a place for allah ﷻ.
Al Izz ibn ‘Abd al-Salam and Al Ghazali two prominent asharis scholars say that the prophet ﷺ hid the belief of allah ﷻ being not inside nor outside creation because most people would’ve denied it. These people believe that our beloved prophet ﷺ was hiding the truth about allah ﷻ because of what people would have said?! الله المستعان
The main belief of Jahmiyyah on this matter was that Allah ﷻ is connected and he is one with his creation, as they affirmed he was everywhere and the salaf and early scholars refuted them by saying Allah ﷻ js distinct and separate from creation.
There is however some from Ahlus sunnah who denied hadd and this will be explained in this post.
Some Ahl al-Sunnah negated ḥadd for Allah تعالى. and this negation can be understood in two correct ways.
- Allah cannot be encompassed by His creation, as evidenced by verses: Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision.” (al-Anʿām: 103). and “And they do not encompass Him in knowledge.” (Ṭāhā: 110).
- The creation does not know the ḥadd (limit or extent) of Allah; only Allah سبحانه وتعالى knows it.
Abū al-Qāsim al-Tamīmī al-Aṣbahānī (d. 535 AH) said: If someone says, “Allah has no ḥadd intending that creation cannot comprehend His ḥadd, they are correct. If they mean that Allah Himself does not know His own ḥadd, they are misguided. If they mean Allah is present everywhere by His essence (bi dhātihi), they are also misguided.
Imām Aḥmad’s Reported Negation and Affirmation of ḥadd
It has been reported from Imām Aḥmad that he negated and affirmed ḥadd
Ibn Taymiyyah explains this and says Imām Aḥmad negated the idea that creation can define or describe Allah’s ḥadd, kayfiyyah (how), or estimate His attributes. This does not contradict affirming that Allah, in Himself, has a ḥadd known only to Him. Allah describes Himself, but creation cannot describe Him fully.
The Salaf affirmed that Allah has a ḥadd, but only Allah knows it, and they denied that the creation could comprehend or define it.
Translation: The scholars of Islam have discussed the meaning of the term hadd in the Arabic language. Among their statements are the following: Al-Khalil ibn Ahmad (d. 170 AH) said in his book al-‘Ayn (p. 175): Hadd: The boundary that separates any two things is a hadd between them, and the extremity of everything is its hadd. Ibn Faris (d. 395 AH) said in Mu’jam al-Maqāyīs (3/2): The root letters ha (2) and dal (2) pertain to two essential meanings: the first is prevention, and the second is the extremity of something. Therefore, hadd is the barrier between two things. Abū al-Qāsim al-Tamimi al-Aşbahānī (d. 535 AH) said: The hadd of everything is its point of separation from other than it. Every existent thing has a hadd that it ends at, distinguishing it from other things in its characteristics and dimensions.
Ad-Daarimi (d. 280 AH) said in al-Naqd (p. 57): All of creation knows that nothing to which the name “thing” applies exists except that it has a hadd, an extremity, and an attribute. Something that has no hadd, no extremity, and no attribute does not exist. Therefore, a thing is always described without fail, and there is nothing that can be described without a hadd or extremity. Your statement “it has no hadd” means that it does not exist.
The Consensus of Ahl al-Sunnah on Affirming al-Hadd for Allah: Ahl al-Sunnah unanimously affirm hadd for Allah. Some of them have also used the phrase “negating hadd,” but what they intended by this negation aligns with the correct meaning that Ahl al-Sunnah agreed upon and does not align with what the Jahmiyyah intended by negating hadd. The Jahmiyyah use this to deny Allah’s transcendence (‘uluw) over His creation.
First: The Position of Affirming al-Hadd for Allah: Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah unanimously affirm the term hadd for Allah Ta’ala in the sense of affirming His transcendence (‘uluw), separateness (baynünah) from creation, and His rising (istiwa’) over His Throne. Uthman al-Därimi (d. 280 AH) said in al-Naqd (p. 62): The consensus of both Muslims and disbelievers is that Allah is above the heavens, and they agreed in defining Him with this (hadd), except for the deviant Marīsi and his followers. Even children who have not reached the age of maturity know this.
Secondly: The Negation of al-Hadd by Some of Ahl al-Sunnah for Allah: It has been established that some of Ahl al-Sunnah negated al-hadd for Allah and this negation can be understood in two ways: The first meaning hat none of the creation can encompass Him, as He said: Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives fall] vision, and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted, (al-An’am: 103] And His statement: And they do not encompass Him in knowledge.” [Taha: 110]
The second meaning: Negating the creation’s knowledge of His hadd, such that none knows the nature of His hadd except Him. The Intention of the Speaker: Abū al-Qāsim al-Tamimi al-Aşbahānī (d. 535 AH) said: If by his statement “He has no hadd” he means that the creation does not encompass knowledge of Him, then he is correct. If his intention is that Allah Himself does not have knowledge of Himself, then he is misguided. If his intention is that Allah is in every place with His Essence, then he is also misguided. Examples of Both Negation and Affirmation from Ahl al-Sunnah: Among those from whom both negation and affirmation have been narrated is Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241 AH).
Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) said in Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah (1/433), and refer also to his words in Dar Ta ärud al-Aql wa al-Naql (2/33-36): After quoting the statement of Imam Ahmad regarding the negation of al-hadd, he said: This statement of Imam Abū Abd Allah Ahmad clarifies that he negated the ability of the servants to define Allah تعالى or His attributes with a hadd, or to estimate that, or to reach the point of describing it. This does not contradict what has previously been established: that Allah Himself has a hadd that He knows, but no one else knows it. Or that He describes Himself in ways that others cannot describe. This is the same as the statements of the other Imams of the Salaf: they affirm the realities and negate the ability of the servants to comprehend their true nature.
Ibn Taymiyyah also said in Dar Ta’arud al-Aql wa al-Naql (2/35): This is an example of what has been narrated from the Imams, as has been detailed elsewhere. They clarified that what they affirmed of al-hadd is known only to Allah, just as Malik, Rabi’ah, and others said: al-Istiwa is known, and its kayfiyyah (how) is unknown.
They clarified that the kayfiyyah of His rising (istiwa’) is unknown to the servants. Thus, they did not negate its existence in reality but negated the servants’ knowledge of it. This is similar to what ‘Abd al-‘Azīz ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Mājishūn (d. 164 AH) and many others among the Salaf and Imāms said when they negated the servants’ knowledge of His extent and kayfiyyah. Those Among Ahl al-Sunnah Who Made Such Statements Before and After Imam Ahmad: Abū Dāwüd al-Tayālisi (d. 204 AH) said: “Al-Thawri, Shu’bah, Hammad ibn Zayd, Hammad ibn Salamah, Sharīk, and Abū ‘Awanah did not define [Allah’s hadd] or liken (yushabbihūn), nor did they say ‘how.” This was quoted by Ibn Rajab (d. 795 AH) in Fath al-Barī (6/535), quoting from al-Bayhaqi’s citations. Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276 AH) said in al-Radd ‘ala al-Jahmiyyah (p. 53): You believe in the beatific vision (ru’yah), the divine manifestation (tajalli), that He marvels, that He descends to the lowest heaven, and that He rose over His Throne (istiwa’)… without saying in this a kayfiyyah or hadd from ourselves
Ithbat al-Hadd li-llāh li-dashti al-Hanbalī by Abī al-Qāsim al-Dashti Pg 23-25
Imām Aḥmad says the Jahmiyyah denied Hadd for Allah ﷻ
Translation: Beliefs of the Jahmiyyah, they said: There is no place empty of Him, and He is not in one place over another. He does not speak, nor does He ever speak. No one in the worldly life can see Him, and no one in the Hereafter will see Him. He cannot be described, nor is He known by any attribute or action. He has no end, nor does He have a limit.
Ar-Radd ‘ala Al-Jahmiyyah wa Az-Zanādiqah by Imam Ahmad Pg 208
S
Isḥāq ibn Ibrāhīm (d. 238 AH)
and Ibn al-Mubārak (d. 181 AH) affirm a hadd for Allah ﷻ(edited)
Translation: I asked Ishaq ibn Ibrahim (d. 282 AH), I said: The saying of Allah, Blessed and Exalted: There is no whispering among three, but He is their fourth, nor among five, but He is their sixth” (Al-Mujadila: 7); how do you explain this? He said: Wherever you are, He is closer to you than your jugular vein, and He is distinct from His creation. I said to Ishaq: Is He upon the Throne with a limit? He said: Yes, with a limit. And it was narrated from Ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), he said: He is upon His Throne, distinct from His creation, with a limit.
Kitab As Sunnah by Imam Kirmani Pg 187-188
Ibn Taymiyyah mentions that this is a well-known athar from Ibn al-Mubārak (d. 181 AH) and firmly established from him through various chains; it is also authentic and firmly established from Aḥmad ibn Ḥanbal (d. 241 AH), Isḥāq ibn Rāhawayh (d. 238 AH), and many other imāms.
Translation: ‘Ali ibn al-Hasan ibn Shaqiq (d. 188 AH) said, “I asked ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH): ‘How do we know our Lord?’ He said: ‘That He is above His heavens, upon His Throne (al-‘Arsh), distinct from His creation.’ I asked: ‘With a limit?’ He said: ‘With a limit that no one knows except Him.’
This is well-known from Ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH) and firmly established from him through various chains; it is also authentic and firmly established from Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241 AH), Ishaq ibn Rahawayh (d. 238 AH), and many other imams.” And a man said to ‘Abd Allah ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH): “O Aba ‘Abd al-Rahman, I have become afraid of Allah due to how much I supplicate against the Jahmiyyah.” He said: “Do not be afraid, for they claim that your Lord, who is in the sky (al-Sama’), is not anything.”
Majmu Al Fatawa Ibn Taymiyyah (5/184)
Also recorded in Kitab as Sunnah Al Khallal that Imam Ahmad affirmed allah ﷻ is separate from creation.
Translation: Abdullah ibn Ahmad said: I said to my father (Ahmad ibn Hanbal) “Our Lord, Blessed and exalted is he, is above the seven Heavens, over His Throne, separate from His creation, and His power and Knowledge is in every place?” “He said: Yes, He is above His Throne, and nothing escapes His knowledge.”
Kitab As-Sunnah by Al-Khallal (2/296)
Imām Aḥmad ibn Ḥanbal (d. 241 AH) affirms the athar of Ibn Al Mubarak that Allah ﷻ is separate from creation.
Translation: Among them: What was narrated by al-Athram (d. 261 AH), who said: Muhammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Qaysi narrated to me, saying: I said to Ahmad ibn Hanbal (d. 241 AH): It is narrated from Ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH) that it was said to him: “How do we know our Lord, Mighty and Exalted?” He said: “In the seventh heaven, above His Throne, with a limit (yuhadd).” Ahmad replied: “This is how He is, according to us.”
Tabaqat Al Hanabila by Al Qadi Abu Ya’la (1/267)
Tabi’ Imam Abū Muʿādh al-Balkhī (d.199AH) objects to the Jahmiyyah saying allah ﷻ is located in every place by calling them liars and saying he is above the heavens as he said. This also proves that when the salaf argued with the jahmiyyah there was no dispute in regards to Allah’s status it was in regards to where his essence is located and the salaf debunked them by saying he is above the heavens meaning that’s where his essence is
Translation: Tabi’ Imam Abū Mu’adh al-Balkhi (d.199AH) said: “I recited the Quran to Jahm bin safwan, and he was at the crossing of Tirmidh. He was a man originally from Kūfa, he was eloquent in speech. He had no knowledge, nor did he sit with the people of knowledge. He would speak with the theologians (Mutakallimīn), so they said to him: “Describe to us your Lord whom you worship.” Abu Mu’adh said: “He entered the house and did not come out for such and such (time).” Abu Mu’adh said: “Then he came out to them after some days that he mentioned and said: “He is this air with everything, in everything, and nothing is free from Him.” The enemy of Allah lied; verily, Allah is above the heavens as He described Himself.”
This was narrated by Ibn Abi Hatim (d. 327 AH) in al-Radd ‘ala al-Jahmiyyah, as quoted in Sharh Usool al-I’tiqād by al-Lālakāee (d. 418 AH), pp. 634-635
Kitab Al-Asma wa As-Sifat By Al Bayhaqi Pg 1075
Imam Ibn Al Qayyim says that it makes no sense to affirm that we will be able to see Allah ﷻ with our eyes yet deny that he is seperate from creation and says most rational people deny this ridiculous belief of seeing something that is not inside nor outside creation.
Translation: Ibn Al-Qayyim said: The explicit naql (transmission) has indicated that the believers will see Allah from above them, not from below them, as it is stated: “While the people of Paradise are in their bliss, a light will shine upon them, and they will raise their heads. Behold, the Almighty, Glorified and Exalted, will appear to them from above and say, ‘O people of Paradise, peace be upon you.’ Then He recited the verse: ‘Peace! A word from a Merciful Lord’ [Qur’an 36:58].
Afterward, He will conceal Himself from them, but His mercy and blessings will remain upon them in their dwellings.” [Sunan Ibn Majah 184 in the chapter ‘Concerning what the Jahmiyyah denied’] Thus, acknowledging the ru’yah [seeing Allah] and denying His elevation and separation from creation cannot coexist. The extreme Jahmiyyah deny both His ‘Uluww (elevation) above His creation and the believers’ vision of Him in the Hereafter, while their effeminate counterparts acknowledge the ru’yah yet deny His ‘Uluww. The majority of rational people have ridiculed those who claim that vision can occur without facing the one seen and without His separation from creation.”
As-Sawa iq Al-Mursalah by Ibn Al Qayyim Pg 1332-1333
Imam Ad Dhahabi quotes ibn battah saying the muslims from among the ṣaḥābah and the tābi‘īn have unanimously agreed (ijmā‘) that Allah is on His Throne (‘arsh), above His heavens, distinct (bā’in) from His creation.
Translation: Chapter: Belief in Allah being on His Throne, distinct (bā’in) from His creation, and His knowledge encompassing His creation. The Muslims from among the sahābah and the tabi’in have unanimously agreed (ijmā) that Allah is on His Throne (‘arsh), above His heavens (samāwāt), distinct (bā’in) from His creation. As for His statement: (‘And He is with you’ [Qur’an 57:4]
It is, as the scholars have said: His knowledge. And as for His statement: (‘And He is Allah in the heavens and in the earth’ [Qur’an 6:3]) – its meaning is that He is Allah in the heavens and He is Allah in the earth. Its confirmation is in the Book of Allah: (‘And He is the One who is Ilah in the heaven and Ilah in the earth’ [Qur’an 43:84]). The Jahmis used as evidence His statement: (‘There is no private conversation among three but that He is the fourth of them’ [Qur’an 58:7]) and said: “Allah is [with us and within us].” The scholars have explained that this refers to His knowledge. Then He, Exalted is He, said at the end of the verse: (‘Indeed, Allah is Knowing of all things’ [Qur’an 58:7]).
Mukhtasar Al Uluww by Imam Dhahabi Pg 252-253
Imam Ahmad (d.241AH) brings a good argument in Ar Radd Ala Jahmiyyah Wal Zanadiqah and says to ask the jahmiyyah: ”When He created something, did He then create it inside Himself or outside of Himself?”
“And then he is lead to three answers where he must say one of them. If he claims that Allāh created the creation inside Himself then he commits kufr,
And if he says that He created them outside of Him Self and then entered into them, then this is also kufr”
And if he says that He created them outside of Himself and did not enter into them then he has retracted his saying completely. And this is the opinion of Ahlus-Sunnah.
Translation: Imam Ahmad (d.241AH) said: And if you want to know that the jahmi is lying about Allāh when he is claiming that Allah is in every place, and that He is not in one place without (also) being in another place (at the same time), then say to him: “Did Allah not exist and there was nothing along with him?” Then he will say: “Yes.” Then say to him: “When He created something, did He then create it inside Himself or outside of Himself?” And then he is lead to three answers where he must say one of them. If he claims that Allah created the creation inside Himself then he commits kufr, due to claiming that the jinn, mankind and the shayātin are in His Self.
And if he says that He created them outside of Him Self and then entered into them, then this is also kufr when he claims that He entered into every place and unwanted dirt and rotten (things).
And if he says that He created them outside of Himself and did not enter into them then he has retracted his saying completely. And this is the opinion of Ahlus-Sunnah.
Ar Radd Ala Jahmiyyah By Imam Ahmad Pg 155-156
Ar-Razi says this is an argument of the mushabiha, yet these heretics will struggle to solve this shubuhat
Translation: The first shubhah: and from the shubuhat of what remains of the mujassimah, is that they say: When Allah created the world, it must be said that He created it in either His dhaat or outside His dhaat. The first is false by agreement because it would mean that His dhaat is mixed with filth and things that must be avoided. The second means that the world is outside the dhaat of Allah, separate from His dhaat, so Allah would be separate from the world by distance and direction. As for saying that the world is not in the dhaat of Allah and not outside the dhaat of Allah, this is something that the mind does not accept at all.
Al Mataalib Al-Aliyah by Ar Razi (2/57)
